Unstoppable @ Craig

How Strong Cultures Endure: Part 2

• Episode 6

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0:00 | 29:46

Earning and nurturing trust within an organization is not a “nice-to-have” but a “must-have.” 

Join Jandel Allen-Davis, M.D., CEO and president of Craig Hospital, as she continues her conversation with former Craig Hospital CEOs Denny O'Malley and Mike Fordyce. Listen as three generations of leadership share how they built and contributed to a trusting and collaborative culture by unlocking potential, bolstering employee commitment and embracing the freedom to make mistakes, all of which have encouraged innovation. 

If you are a leader experiencing a profitable quarter or a turbulent time, this discussion about the importance of staying true to an organization's cultural essence is a useful navigation tool.  

For those who missed our first episode, we recommend you listen to "How Strong Cultures Endure" before joining this discussion. Get ready for new perspectives and practical tips for cultivating a positive organizational culture.


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Disclaimer: The content in this podcast is intended for general informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice or treatment for specific medical conditions. No professional relationship is implied or otherwise established by reading this document. You should not use this information to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease without consulting with a qualified healthcare provider. Craig Hospital is not affiliated with resources that may be referenced in this podcast. Craig Hospital assumes no liability for any third-party material or for any action or inaction taken as a result of any content or any suggestions made in this podcast and should not be relied upon without independent investigation. The information on this page is a public service provided by Craig Hospital and in no way represents a recommendation or endorsement by Craig Hospital. Any use of this content by a corporation or other revenue-seeking or -generating organization is prohibited unless first approved by Craig Hospital. 

For more information, transcriptions and behind-the-scene photos, visit https://craighospital.org/unstoppable

Craig Hospital is a nationally recognized neurorehabilitation hospital and research center specialized in the care of individuals who have sustained a spinal cord injury (SCI) and/or a brain injury (BI). Located in Denver, Colorado, Craig Hospital is an independent, not-for-profit, 93-bed national center of excellence that has treated thousands of people with SCI and BI since 1956. Learn more: https://craighospital.org

0:00:06.6Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

Welcome to Unstoppable at Craig, where we pull back the curtain on what makes healthy workplace cultures click, and what happens when people are empowered to expand the boundaries of what is possible. We'll explore the perspectives of employees and leaders who have to speak their truth. Tell their stories and unlock uncommon ways of approaching challenges. I'm Dr. Jandel Allen Davis, CEO and President of Craig Hospital, a world renowned rehabilitation hospital that exclusively specializes in the neurorehabilitation and research of patients with spinal cord and brain injury. Join me as we learn from people who love what they do and what happens when fear doesn't stifle innovation.

0:00:51.5Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

Hello. In today's episode, we start with the concept of fear based leadership and discuss how it stops people from doing their best work. We use this as a jumping off point for a conversation around what makes great leaders who are in every way the antithesis of fear based leaders, and those we need at the top of every organization to develop thriving workplaces. We touch on many different concepts of what makes a strong leader. So buckle up. This is the second episode of a two part series, so if you haven't listened to the first one, I do encourage you to go back and do so and then come back to this one. In the first episode, we introduce our guests, Denny O'Malley and Mike Fordyce, former CEOs of Craig, and talk about their contributions to Craig's culture. And in this episode, we carry through the threads of that first conversation

as we discuss our thoughts on leadership. 0:01:42.3Denny O'Malley:

There are some things I learned along the way, and there are some things that, for me at least, changed a little along the way. But one thing that I believed very early on is organizations need to drive out as much fear as they can. Fear is, forgive the expression here at Craig, but fear is paralyzing. People do not do their best work when they're afraid, when they're afraid to screw up, afraid to make a mistake, whatever. So I tried to drive out fear and replace fear with fun. Because when people are relaxed they do their best work. And when are people inclined to be relaxed? It's when they feel confident about where they are, it's when they feel like they're having a little fun at what they're doing. So I think those are concepts that organizations often don't appreciate fully and I think they work pretty well here.

It's certainly not foolproof, but they work pretty well here. 0:02:

42.0Denny

O'Malley:

I can tell you that we had, and you had, Mike, and I know you probably have Jandel, or if not you will, opportunities for Craig to succumb to the urge to merge or to become part of the bigger organization. And I fought that vigorously. I didn't really have to fight it, but I mean we rejected it. The opportunities that came our way. And there were many, and why did we do that? Well, I think it's because I understood, and fortunately the organization did and the board, that our culture was something special, that the intimacy of the healthcare transaction here at Craig was unusual and unusually strong. And to become part of another organization that maybe could never fully understand the importance of culture to outcome here, I was afraid that that would be compromised and that special kind of atmosphere that we had here might not be replicable, or even something that could be perpetuated with a much larger organization

that had a different set of values. 0:03:58.1Denny O'Malley:

So I resisted that and in retrospect, I'm glad we did. Now, there were other pragmatic reasons too, but that was because we were independent. We were the Switzerland of healthcare. We wanted to have referrals come from all the healthcare systems. So to align with one would be, in many respects, political suicide in the eyes of the other.

Exactly. 0:04:17.6Denny O'Malley:

So, we wanted to be the place where anybody with a spinal cord or brain injury could come regardless of what system they originated in and we were gonna rise above be loyal just to your system. It was instead be loyal to the

patient and what they need. Yeah. 0:04:32.9Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

Mike told me that, still knock on the door. Everybody in a healthcare operations would love to be able to say that Craig's part of their

family. Clearly. 0:04:48.3Denny O'Malley: Yes, we were popular. 0:04:

49.4Dr.

Jandel Allen Davis:

Well, I think we can tell them we are. We'll take care of all your patients. I remember being asked that question in that first round interview and exactly to your point. I said, if you get with one system, you're with that system. And more importantly, you haven't helped at all curb the cost, the healthcare cost conundrum we find ourselves in 'cause then everybody's gonna try to do it. And that just increases cost and does not necessarily, in fact, you can pretty much guarantee it's not gonna comport well with quality. And sometimes you have to be careful how you

walk that plank with these partners. I... 0:05:17.0Denny O'Malley:

Being an independent hospital is an anomaly today. I mean, it's a rarity.

I'm glad it's something that we've been able to sustain. 0:05:

28.5Dr. Jandel

Allen Davis:

They both look at me and say, so what are you gonna do about it? It's like you told me when as I... I was not only asked about it in your... In the initial interview about this notion of independence, but back to the inclusive way that input is given to making the big decisions around who gets to come and hang out at Craig. Every single one of those interviews that I had over two days here in the second round, this subject of independence came up and I said to them, I said, I think you're wise to stay independent, but it's not enough just to say, I want to be independent. You have to be strong and independent and strength under strength. It's not, I don't mean that as a mushy word. I think it is part of culture, but it also means some paying attention to what's

happening in the markets outside. 0:06:16.8Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

You gotta bring the outside in. You gotta watch, frankly, you gotta keep your arrogance and complacency a bit in control because you can begin to think you're the best and, not be necessarily open to new ideas or new learnings from others. And so one of the... It did happen, Mike said someone will knock on the door and wanna have a conversation. It's like,"Oh, I hadn't even been here four months and it happened." No. It's happening. And what I did is I sat down and said,"We need to have some deep conversations about why it's important with the teams and with the staff and with the board." And so we've done that and then we're approached by DU to... Would you be willing to write a business case to be the subject of a business case? And the reason had nothing to do with the topic 'cause I did end up saying "This would be a cool one to write about."

0:07:09.8Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

This whole topic of independence. It was because most of the protagonists in business cases in business schools look like you two, white males. They don't look like old black girls or women. And so I said, "I think that would be great." And I said,"And I know the one I want us to do," I'd love them to write one on independence because most business school cases are on mergers and acquisitions to your earlier points. And so we have that out there and we are now thinking about it back to how do you make a great place better? The worry for me about this whole notion of independence, and this is a lesson for lots of sectors or industries not our own, is that if you don't take a moment to answer the builder by question, you can get your cost structure super heavy 'cause you have this sense that, Well, we're not gonna... They got it, but they'll want us in so we'll just build it. And then you can't... It's not sustainable. So, we are partnering the discussion of independence with... To in some ways what you said about the SEL story. I don't know, obviously the whole story or even tiny bit of it. What the idea of where are there opportunities to even deepen or strategically partner with others to provide some of the services for our patients that it doesn't make sense for us to necessarily do. So we're continuing to move it along. But by God not on my watch is what I

say. 0:08:27.5Denny O'Malley:

One of the things I learned over time was it's easy to... Easier to identify the external threats to your culture. Things that change on the horizon in healthcare and reimbursement and all the sorts of things. Those are easy 'cause to see coming at you. But the ones that are more insidious and that are almost in some respects more dangerous are the internal threats to your culture. And those are not often, they're not conscious, but there's a movement within some element of the staff or certain leaders who wanna try to take you in a different direction, because maybe they're bored and they wanna do something to change their landscape a little bit. So they say,"I wanna do this and so on." And we always would have to challenge ourselves and say, "Does that help promote the culture that we

wanna preserve?" 0:09:18.2Denny O'Malley:

And that's not always easy to do 'cause you have to try to balance personal growth and organizational values. But we always worked our way through it. But I mean, I think part of the job of the leaders is to identify those internal threats and say, "How are we gonna find the right answer to that? How are we gonna work through that?" And that was interesting. One other little bromide that I guess I think about and I forgot to mention initially about changing over time maybe your leadership style and what influenced it. I had a light bulb finally go on after being here about three months. I'd been here and I thought I'm getting chewed up by the emotion of this place here. Here I am 25 years old, the CEO, don't know much. And I'm walking around in the halls and most of the patients are my age peers. And they are but the grace of God

kind of thing. 0:10:20.0Denny O'Malley:

But it just didn't correlate as fully as I thought it would. So I realized that after about three months, I gotta stop pitying these people. I can't help somebody if I'm gonna pity them. You need to develop a healthy empathy. But not pity. Pity is negative. Empathy is positive. It's something you appreciate the situation

and now you can deal with it. 0:10:49.4Denny O'Malley:

I had trouble because I always wanted to turn the clock back to that millisecond in time when this catastrophic event occurred and changed somebody's life forever. But no matter how hard I try, I can't wish that away, that happened and it's done. But if I start at that millisecond right after it happens, maybe I can help make a life a little

bit better. 0:11:10.8Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

Wow. Wow. That's a good one.

0:11:11.3Denny O'Malley:

So, that again was something that where light bulb went on and it affect the way I approached decision making and was

very helpful. 0:11:19.8Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

Sort of facing facts. Yeah. You mentioned internal threats made me think about, one of the things that you have to... To kind of protect here is you're gonna have turnover of department directors and you hire a new department director and they're very talented. They've got great ideas and we would bring them in and like within four weeks the department's up there because they wanted to come in and put their thumbprint on everything. So we used... I don't know if you... But we used to basically hire... When we hired a new director, basically they had a mandate, don't do anything for six

months. 0:12:01.0Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

Yeah. And then we do keep that.

Live in the culture, observe. 0:12:05.6Denny O'Malley:

I used to say don't change anything until they understand why it's the way it is.

Yeah. 0:12:10.7Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

Yeah. And that's a really great one to put into the room Mike because, I've spent a fair amount of time being terrified and I'll use that language just internally about harming this place knowing just like we do, that continuous improvement is part of it. And it's real important to figure out how you hit that balance. And in my view, it really is not just about don't change anything for six months, but make sure you're clear about what you're gonna do over those six months. And it is not just getting to know to the extent you can, although I learned a really valuable piece of history that Dana had... Dana Polonsky, one of our VPs had bothered to share about why we decorate the Christmas trees as leaders just the other day. But to learn the history as much as you can, but more importantly, to get to know people.

0:13:02.6Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

It is a corny phrase, but it is one of the truest ones I know 'cause I... And it also comes from healthcare, from taking care of patients. They don't really care what you know until they know that you care. And that's a lot of walking, a lot of talking. We tell all of our new employees 'cause we go down to new employee orientation. I'm sure you did too. Every two weeks and meet with the whole leadership team goes down and I tell them that we are a very casual culture, but we're not careless. I now, since you and I talked last spring, I actually walked through on slides, some of the phrases from the Craig Recipe that we did update 'cause all good recipes they need to be updated. And then the last slide I show is the quote you left me because we were talking at the time about "Oh, so who's still around?" I said, "Well, you know, there's been a lot of

retirements but there's still some long tenures here." 0:13:

53.9Dr. Jandel

Allen Davis:

But people don't stay in places as long as they used to. And you had said, "It doesn't matter how long you stay." I put in quotes, I hope it's forever. I said, "But your job is to make sure that this recipe is passed down to future generations." There's this thread that needs to be carried through at the same time that you are knowing you need to change. 'Cause the reality is the market is not the market it was when you get here, and I will say honestly, sometimes I wanna pull my hair out when I hear from people, which you don't hear as much anymore. Oh, well that happened during Denny's time and we just wrote it out when the insurer said X, Y, Z. I said, "The insurers aren't saying X, Y, Z anymore. They're saying hell no anymore." So how do we work with that? Or those sorts of things is this idea that gently and in the appropriate way, bringing in the outside has been super

important. 0:14:44.3Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

And tying it to how it is that we actually remain independent but not doing it through this sort of, I guess I'd call it ridiculously transactional or technical way. But back to mission. This place has to survive. This place has to thrive and has to endure. I remember and Mike, you were... This was when we were still in our overlap period 'cause there were 10 retirements between October... And I started on October 1st too, 2018, so 10 years later. But there were 10 retirements between October and like March or April of the following year. So that little tiny bit of time. And they were all people who'd been here 30, 40... A lot of 40 or darn near 40 year, 10 years. And you... I've never told you this story, but I remember for Lee Mins who was our director of facilities and head of environmental services and that whole thing saw you side by side through a couple of builds and expansions

I'd imagine. And his party down in the... Cafeteria. 0:15:

51.1Dr. Jandel

Allen Davis:

The cafeteria and to see police and fire and the construction company leaders and architects and old timers who came back from all over, whether they were therapists or other folks who worked alongside Lee and you were there, Denny, I remember. And you all told stories and you told these amazing stories and see... Okay, here we come. There's gonna be more tears. So I'm just warning you guys.

0:16:21.9Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

And I stood in the back and I listened to this and I watched this. And then Mike, you spoke and you all... I mean it was just this thing that... First of all, it's rare that you see it that way. I mean, if you think about typical retirement dinners we're all buttoned up and they roast them, which really is a not

so nice way of saying what you wanted to say. 0:16:

41.5Dr. Jandel Allen

Davis:

They were in charge, whoever the they is. But I stood in the back and I got, I said,"Damn, I can't have 30 or 40 years of this. They'll have me

in a wheelchair by the end." 0:16:55.7Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

But more importantly, what a beautiful, beautiful thing it is for people to have this and things that people may not even know, many walking through here don't even know how good it is and what a special gift it is to

work here. 0:17:04.0Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

And I actually went up to my office and I was very terrible about it. And so I'd wonder through that lens, it'll be interesting to see what I'm like how much blubbering I'm doing when it's my time to say to the board chair it's time or whoever. So what was it like to know that you both got to end as I will too, given my age, your careers in a place like this. And what did it mean, Mike, to be

the leader of this great place for 10 years? Yeah. 0:17:

45.0Dr. Jandel Allen

Davis:

And Denny, we'll ask you next. Denny I think mentioned it already. It's not an easy place to leave. And knowing that the announcement had been made, announced that you were coming. There were many times and I would look at Veronica Trimble and say, pack up my stuff. Let's go out the back door. Put it in my

car 'cause I can't say good bye. 0:18:12.7Denny O'Malley:

Yeah, yeah. Well it was a rare honor. I mean, to be able to be, for me in one organization for 35 years and its alleged leader for 34 of those was an amazing experience. But I mean I tried to be sort of the paternal figure in my own family, but I lived with Craig Hospital's family much longer than I lived with my own. I have three daughters and wonderful daughters and they've gone on and expanded the family and grandkids and the whole deal. But they were only under the roof for 18, 19, maybe 20 years.

And, Craig was under my roof for 35. 0:19:00.0Denny O'Malley:

It was not just a job. It was a vocation. It was a way of life. And a way of life that you leave... You leave Craig, but it never leaves you. And I hope that's the way most people who have come through these doors, regardless of the length of their tenure, feel that Craig will never leave them. That it was an experience that

touched them in a way that had a lifetime impact. 0:19:31.6Denny O'Malley:

That was certainly true for me. So much of the way I view life has been influenced by being here. And I mean that in every way, and I'm not gonna get into them all, but I mean that in terms of how I interact with people. I mean, it's affected my politics. It's affected all kinds of things, that stay with me. But at some point, as Mike said, and I think this becomes very important, and you're the one that will have to face this next because we've already done so, and that is to say, When's the right time? When's the right time? I left this job... The day I left it, I loved it more than any time in my entire career. I mean, it was fun... Partly because I knew I was gonna be able to lift this load and stick it over here, and take it off mine after all those years. But it was more fun, in so many ways, and yet I knew it was time. Why would you leave somewhere where you're never having more fun? Well, because there was something inside of me that said, I'm concerned that I might start cutting corners; that I'm gonna start making decisions just by rote because I've done it so many times. Oh, that again. And so you throw the same

That's beautiful. 0:21:00.7Denny O'Malley:

And I was worried that I might

get sloppy. 0:21:00.7Dr. Jandel Allen Davis: Yeah. 0:21:01.1Denny O'Malley:

And this place deserved better than sloppy work from me. So that's when I knew. People said, You're not even 60. I was just shy of 60 when I left here. So I had a few hopefully good years left, but I knew it was time. And you'll know. I don't know when that'll be, but you'll know. Don't deny the voice and don't fight it. And when you leave, it doesn't matter if it's 10 years or 35 years or whatever it'll be for you, 10 or 12 or whatever,

it's how good were those years. 0:21:35.9Dr. Jandel Allen Davis: Yeah. 0:21:

36.5Denny

O'Malley:

And you can have just as much fulfillment and contribution and residual value in a lot shorter tenure than I did. It doesn't matter. That's well said. And we were talking about... You were talking about your interview process. And you really know what's important to people when you think about the questions they asked you. And you experienced questions about culture, and culture, and culture, and independence. And I face the same questions. Change, culture, independence. You didn't get this question, but I got this question all the time, no matter what group I was interviewing with, and they would say, Do you feel comfortable wearing a dress? Because... Denny wore dresses all the time at Halloween. But that was the other question. Which talked about

fun. 0:22:25.4Denny O'Malley: Rather smartly, I might add. 0:22:

28.1Dr.

Jandel Allen Davis:

Yes. Well, and then there was the picture. Which the question talks about fun, which this place is fun.

0:22:33.4Dr. Jandel Allen Davis: Yeah. 0:22:34.9Denny O'Malley:

One comment I did make to you and I mean this as a very sincere comment, you said to both of us, but certainly to me on numerous occasions, "I don't wanna mess it up, I don't wanna mess it up." I would say to you, forget about that. You haven't messed it up, you're not gonna mess it up, don't obsess on messing it up. If you're gonna obsess on something,

Yeah. 0:23:01.0Denny O'Malley:

Not have I messed it up.

And you're making it better already. And you will. 0:23:

06.4Dr. Jandel Allen

Davis: Thank you. Thank you. 0:23:07.4Denny O'Malley:

And so don't worry

about that. 0:23:08.1Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

Thank you, and I'm gonna try to absorb that, and I will also change my language

'cause it's somewhat jokey when I say it... 0:23:16.5Denny O'Malley:

Oh,

of course. 0:23:17.3Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

I say to you guys...

0:23:19.4Denny O'Malley: Of course. 0:23:19.9Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

It's still standing. 'Cause there's a part of me on some level that I do jokingly say, Oh, look, my badge worked this morning, I guess I'll go in. I'm still employed. But what I say... And that's what I mean behind the comment. Jandel, you've been here four years and three months or whatever, you would have screwed it up if it was gonna happen by now. Just keep doing you. You're not gonna do it perfectly every day. And part of the reason why it works is because there really, to use another corny phrase, I tell there's no I in team. You got great people around you, your job is to give them all of the horse power and gasoline they need, and know that you're here to bust barriers, to know when it's time to be a player coach, and know when it's time to be a coach and step back. And you're fortunate to have a team that's so talented, but also they have the gift of telling you if they think that it's a wrong decision.

0:24:12.6Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

Oh yeah. Oh boy, do they ever. They will. I love our team that way. And one of the things, back to this whole notion of when is it torch passing time. And I don't know, I mean, that's clear. I keep saying, and my goal is to get us through this huge expansion that's coming. We have a lot of money we have to raise. The way that we arrived at what we wanna do, it's all so patient, and family, and community centered. Whether it's the outpatient work, whether it's beginning to think about pre rehabilitation, so the folks who hit the door for rehab are ready to do rehab and we're not helping them still recover from either complications that happen in ICUs or they're still healing. Because the desire to be here, just so you all know, the wait list is 60 to 70 deep, and on any given day 20 odd are ready, if we had beds today to put them in today. So we've got work

to do in that sort of space, but... 0:25:14.1Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

The work ahead. And I will know when it's time, but what I realize, given what I know are coming around tenures, is that in a few short years I'll be the senior most person here, which is shocking, on the leadership team. But that's the beauty of the long tenures here is that they come to an end too. So, anyway, thank you for the grace of, Stop saying that. You haven't screwed it up yet. And we won't. The people here are too beautiful, and I think they like me enough that they're not gonna let me screw it up, to exactly your point. When you think about that, tenures and 34 plus one years being here at Craig, you're like, you didn't go home and sit in rocking chairs when it was over, I know that about both of you. Were there things in terms of how your leadership did develop or, as you said, Mike, things that you had just continued to mature that you'd worked on for years and years before, that you took into the work as leaders in terms of things you're doing now, or did after? Just a few words about what those particular things might

have been. 0:26:20.4Denny O'Malley:

Yeah, well, I did independent healthcare consulting for about nine years after I left here, and then became the interim CEO of the Denver Zoo. They did a national search, which I told them would take about... Should take about six to nine months, and I left there 18 months later. But it was actually, it was great fun and a good experience. But I'll tell you something that was really enlightening to me. I never really fully appreciated how good this organization is until I was in that, intimately involved with some others. Consulting, going in and seeing how others worked. Not that they were terrible organizations, but the stuff that we did here that worked. And I went to the zoo and the same thing, and I drew so much on my Craig experience at the zoo. The main thing they needed, because they had gone through a tough time with the leader they'd had there, and I was asked to do the job and I said, I'm too darn old, you need somebody with more tread life left on their tires but I'll help you through the transition,

and I realized they needed some real turnaround in morale. 0:27:

32.2Denny

O'Malley:

They were kind of at a low point, and I had been on the board in the past, and the zoo had generally very good morale. So I drew so much on the Craig experience about how to build the culture in reducing that psychological size, and going out there and working with the zookeepers and all of that in the first period of time I was there, and starting to see things build. It's not that I'm any genius, it's that we just needed to unlock what was inside of all of them, to bring it all together again so that they could feel great pride in what they did, and so on and so forth. And I just relied so much upon the Craig experience that everything I learned here and that I was taught here to try to make, in a relatively short time, that organization better, and the organizations with which I consulted, to try to give them a little bit of a road map about how to develop their cultures as

well. So the experience here was invaluable. 0:28:20.3Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

You know what's cool about... I love that. Unlock what was inside. Nobody comes to work saying, Let me see who I can piss off or kill today, or hurt. So if that's not the case, if that is in people, what do we do as leaders and organizations to actually harness that or to tamp it down? So it's great. Well, I think this is the time where we're supposed to do a bit of a wrap up, and I wanna end where I started, which is just thanking you. Thanking you for the gift of being able to do what I get to do every day. And I do mean get to do every day, in this amazingly strong organization that is as strong as it was the day I came in, if not stronger, to say making a good place better. But then also just for the gift of your friendship and staying connected, however often it happens. It's a comfort to me knowing you're both are out there, and that you have stayed, in whatever ways you have, connected to others here too. 'Cause I think that's important. And it's a real gift for you to come and do this. This is rare.

I mean, who does this? Yeah. 0:29:24.6Denny O'Malley:

This is better than... What's the show? Rosenstein? Isn't that it on Bloomberg every night? Anthony's got that on, he's watching who interviews CEOs and leaders like this. But what really makes this special is the fact that I think it is rare organizations that do tend to its legacy from a leadership perspective, and that's just something that's really important to me. So it matters to me. So thank you.

0:29:51.6Denny O'Malley:

Thank you for letting us take a trip down memory lane. It's been a lot of fun, and typical of the Craig experience, today we shared a few tears...

0:30:04.2Dr. Jandel Allen Davis: Yes. 0:30:05.3Denny O'Malley:

We had many more laughs. But we were all touched by our common experience here. And best of luck to you, best wishes for your continued success. And Mike took it over from me and made it better, and you took it over from him and you're gonna make it better.

You've already started. 0:30:24.3Dr. Jandel Allen Davis: Thank you. 0:30:

25.8Denny

O'Malley:

Yep. Thank you very much. It's been an honor, to be with my friend here and to be with you today and go down memory lane a little bit. And it never leaves

you. 0:30:36.9Denny O'Malley: Right. 0:30:37.1Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

It

never leaves you. It's a good place. 0:30:41.6Dr. Jandel Allen Davis:

I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and I wanna end by again giving a huge thanks to Denny and Mike. As I'm sure you've noticed, they're special people who care deeply about Craig and its success, and I continue to be grateful for their leadership insights. I hope the conversation has inspired you and perhaps motivated you to incorporate one or two new approaches into your leadership style. Maybe you'll even make a Craig Recipe for your own organization. Thanks for joining us today, and if you like what you heard today be sure to subscribe to our podcast so that you never miss an episode.

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Jandel Allen-Davis, MD

Host